Velour wrote: I needed that sort of help. Barbara Roberts wrote: Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. Id say that was posted by a chatbot if it werent for the fact that there did seem to be some semantic link between the sentences. I am a choco-holic. Is it only Christ? In other words, my daughters brain tumor was a disease that was not caused by her behavior or the behavior of those around her. It sounds so evil. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Thanks for sharing your journey with us here too. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. View Source Suggest Edits Memorial Photos Flowers Created by: Karen Added: 14 Dec 2017 Find a Grave Memorial ID: 185907097 Sponsored by Jack Harper The point being, that when someone is in a position of authority over others, even adult to adult, and they use that authority to take advantage of another person (in this case, a policeman husband and his non-law enforcement wife), that is a super predator. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. your anger is showing, yes. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his father's recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. I am not an alcoholic. But is it always a churchs responsibility to tell, advise, or command a person to get some kind of medical or psychiatric treatment? leads to much worse compulsive drinking. He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. Serous help? Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. From Dees original article, which seems a long time ago now: Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. . To say that this is the reason he abuses alcohol is obfuscating the real fact that not everyone who goes through tragedy becomes an alcoholic. He said that this was one of the reasons that private and secret confession to a priest was adopted. Its an honour to count you as friends. Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). They are quite different. But sometimes thats where we end up. That is odd. If you have training, why did you let H.A. The repairs needed to be done from his unit, and he had a simple and logical solution other than letting the plumber into his unit for repairs: If You Just Stop Using Your Shower, We Wont Have a Problem! Made all the sense in the world to him. . instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other.. Not impressed. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. Once again, you are a bit strong. The one thing we learned is that you cannot change someone else. Ive never excused Driscolls awful behavior, why would I excuse this RC Jr. persons? I was told that they are called functional alcoholics, but Im not sure they are alcoholics because they dont fit the stereotype alcoholic or happy drunk image. That is your point of contention, not mine. It would be rare that any of them are qualified when it comes to alcoholism and substance abuse in general. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. Im just curious, how does a person sitting in a church service every Sunday help to treat someones alcoholism? Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! Churches frequently blow it on all of the big issues mental health, domestic violence, divorce, and sexual abuse because they remain unteachable and think they have all of the answers. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? Haha. If so, a shame he did. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! Fuss. No, I am not talking about recovered alcoholics who repented of embracing patriarchy. Yep. Since many of his abuses of people appear to be in front of the entire church, than at some point in his recovery besides making individual amends he should be making public amends, with the help of a sponsor guiding him in the process. The body has many parts. There is usually a reason when people have strong feelings of negativity, and this issue triggers emotional responses from many of us Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. I thought she was referring to a professed believer who would not repent, but I may have been reading between her lines. ^ ^ f .o 1 *> * .V n ..V * ,G O *. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. Thanks for your follow-up comment. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. You know I wanted to share the gospel with him, go through the 4 spiritual laws, take him down the Romans road, walk him through the gospel of John etc. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. It can happen. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Unless dad helped him in starting his own churches. Im the former member of RC Jrs church who contacted Dee. You said, Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church. They were medicating mental illness with alcohol. She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. Some never recover, some fully recover- but all live with the result of where they are and how they got there one way or another. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. He had severe arthritis as well it totally crippled him to the point he could not work, took gold shots, eventually, the treatment and bad medical advice killed him. I have never shared this before but I just needed to. This only applies if you are a member of the in-crowd. You got it dead wrong. For those of us who've personally witnessed RC drunk it came as no surprise. telling me that I cant comment to people who are expecting replies from me isnt ok. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. Through the connections we had made a lot of lives were changed. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. IMHO In essence this TWW blog post was initially about questions of present organized levels of pastoral oversight & accountability within reformed churches, and of the sufficiency of the processes thereof. Thus if one interprets RC Sproul Jr.s actions as not persevering then according to what they teach Sproul was never a believer. an invitation to share his/her story. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Whatever legal consequences the judge orders, including a combination of jail time and substance abuse treatment as a condition of probation, would be the best plan of action in dealing with him as a substance abuser. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. There is no reason for churches to be stuck in the Dark Ages on subjects such as substance abuse, sexual abuse, mental illness, domestic violence and a host of other prevalent problems that will come up in peoples lives. I offered H.A. The church is a body of Christ followers. I need to verify you are who you say you are, but will respect your privacy. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldnt be necessary. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. I doubt I will. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. ), I didnt appreciate Barbaras comment to me and H.U.G. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. And som. I say I because it was just I. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. Membership Covenants One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Here is a link to the DSM-V Criteria (manual for Psychiatric disorders) for Alcohol Use Disorder: And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Its fine for you to decide that YOU want to knock it off. your anger is showing, yes. Is there still a scar? Put a stop to this carnage. You dont. I wasnt talking about you or about what you said. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Abuse is a different issue. Sproul, Sr., might want to get a more personal glimpse into the man to whom many have looked for spiritual guidance and wisdom. Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. The alcoholic never thinks about anyone other then themselves. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. More setting up for But Everybodys Doing It!? Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. So no, there is no authoritative structure. Drunkenness is also condemned. If its 2 and 3 he is being monitored somewhat closely and I assume is less of a danger to society, at least on the road. That was maybe confusing. So for right now thats as much as Im going to say, at least until I can start to feel like this is a safe place. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. didn't want to slow down enough to safely take the corners. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road., However severe the problem may seem, most people with AUD can benefit from treatment. I was very clear that R.C. Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? It is frightening for them and overwhelming that they could be kicked out of their church if their problem became known. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. He's even raised a lot of money for various pro-life causes. Unfortunately, even preachers succumb to the flesh by straying from being led by the Spirit where flesh rules over Spirit. He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. Our group was a safe place for parents. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. i wish this werent so. They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. But they also need bona fide help from people who know how to deliver it and are trained in it. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? Im pretty sure this is the first time Ive ever posted on this blog. We outed ourselves, started. That is them saying that, not me. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. and Rank awarded by Divine Right Hath the Most Privileges of All. I guess you can just take a piece of bread, then. I appreciate the work that you and Jeff Crippen do at A Cry for Justice. I thought I had addressed this issue, but apparently the post didnt enter. The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. I have been on the receiving end of that sense of entitlement, & preferential treatment of alcohol over humans many times. Velour, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. and me and she advocated that people with addictions be kicked out of church. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. It took rescue workers 2-1/2 hours to cut us out of the wreckage. Drunks do not necessarily drive all wild and out-of-control. R.C. I think its the same person. RC Sproul Jr was well aware of it but raised no objections to his continued driving. Alcohol abuse has played a part in that, yes, but RC Jr would have still been a spiritual bully and done the same things had he been a teetotaler too. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. His scandals go back approximately two decades. I think that the Father weeps over some of His children, if indeed they are His. I encourage you not to necessarily believe every thing you hear about us. they have no religious trappings and baggage. If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. He instead cut them, crossing into the opposite lane right on the extreme point of blind curves. I was about to defend you, until I saw the word livers in there. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. Rank Hath Its Privileges, Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. I got the idea that the commenter thought it was a pity that there hadnt been any earlier DUIs, because the judge would not have let him off so easily if there had been a past record. Church counseling may be harmful at times, but my experience (and my familys experience) with secular programs or treatment has not always been successful, either. where have we seen that before? RC Sproul has a very twisted view of the Trinity and the crucifixion. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. She couldnt help it that she forgot so quickly. They should be more vivid. Steam explosions from a pressurized system rupture are BAD. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. Here is an article by a Christian woman Heather, the author of Sober Mercies, about her own journey as a recovering alcoholic. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. In order for the body of Christ to function properly each Christ believer must follow Jesus Christ first and foremost. It seems to me that secure and confident men (I dont like the term real men/women) should do as they wish/deem wise themselves, instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other. I am sorry for what you have been through. We are looking at years and years of reports. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. I needed that sort of help. I dont support enabling him. Intriguing. I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. No, I saw your list. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. I do not believe that anyone is doing him any favors by enabling him. With the prevalence of addictions, including in women (and that includes older women), the solution in my opinion isnt to kick them out of the church but to come alongside them and get them (and their families) help. Daisy, Got a few of my own. Because DUIs are manly. I've been following with some interest his recent arrest for drunk driving with his kids in the car. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly,died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. This is the case with RC2. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. I repeatedly posted that to you last night. There is no excuse for it. and I had a problem with the Bible, as a silencing technique. @ Daisy: Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. At the party afterwards I got to talk with him and the reasons I gave above are largely why hes returning to the Faith. The meshing of the SBC with Calvinists, as Ive witnessed for several years now, both locally and online, has been a great mystery to me. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. Two very separate issues here. 2. Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. thank you for sharing these circumstances. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. So I would be cautious about over-emphasizing secular, mainstream, or Non-Christian solutions and treatment to hurting people, whether they are alcoholics, or are suffering from domestic abuse or from depression, or whatever they are undergoing. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! This is what Barbara posted to H.U.G. With regard to RC2, along with his alcoholism, and the alleged wife spanking which I posted about several years ago, there are numerous reports of spiritual abuse, failure to submit to authority, church discipline, etc. So behind the times.). Theft is a crime. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Oh, so true. And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? when H.A. The church. Could this be Justification by If Everybodys Doing It? Why? There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Finally she allowed a member to take her to the hospital, but it was too late to save her life. There is usually a reason when people have strong feelings of negativity, and this issue triggers emotional responses from many of us. You might as well talk to a brick wall. Fume. To paraphrase a 1950s interview with a trailer-trash Ku Kluxer: Leave him alone! After all the assistant still needed to run numerous errands for RC, and a little thing like a suspended driver's license wasn't going to get in the way of that. Perhaps it would be wise for RC2 to be under the oversight of a completely different church where he could be viewed as just another church member rather than RC1s son and the failed pastor. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. It never came as most of them immediately started looking for the next shiny thing. He got to tell me he loved us kids, my sister was incarcerated and my brother was living in another state. It was a life changing experience. People need to wake up. hbbd``b`?$E @ H.A. People were afraid to discuss it. Like they were in my lane. Thats wonderful, Leslie, that you started a safe group that was so helpful to other parents. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. She did not show that she had no clue. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Jeff I hear you. 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